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Gibson scale length, anyone?
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Author:  jamesneunder [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:10 am ]
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Here is a Gibson from 1958. It's been in my buddy's brother-in-law's closet for 25 years. He was going to refinish it, but never got it done. So here it comes in a box a few months ago.

To the owners delight, we buffed out the new 25 year old wet-sanded lacquer finish to a high gloss. He was ready to put it back together satin and ugly. That's when we discovered it wanted to be buffed. So he's getting back the used Gibson his dad bought him used when just a boy.

We measured the scale length and get 12 5/16 to the 12th fret, which gives 24 5/8 at the saddle. With the bridge bolted in place, it appears to be 1/8 inch past that to the front edge of the saddle. We are just confused as to the scale and want desperately to get the intonation correct by correct placement of the bridge. The pin holes prevent moving the bridge, but it could be slot-filled and re-cut in the correct position.

Any knowledge on this 1958 Gibson? It used to be a sunburst.







Author:  Anthony Z [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:26 am ]
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I’ve heard of people waiting 2 months to buff but 25-years is ridiculous

It sure looks nice and I’ll bet it’s light as a feather.

Is that a J-45? If it is, the scale length should be 24.75. Here’s a link to an article on scale length (scroll down and it talks about how Gibson’s scale length have changed over time).
Gibson Scale Length

Here's another handy link on Vintage Gibson GuitarsAnthony Z39073.5214699074
Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:32 am ]
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Maybe it is the pic... but if this isn't a refin... why does it look like there is finish under the bridge area?

Did gibson glue the bridge on top of the finish?

Author:  crazymanmichael [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:37 am ]
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as is probably mentioned in the article referred to, gibson's nominal 24.75 scale was a bit flexible at times.

i've not seen one that short though.

however, you have to use the scale the fret board is cut to, in this case 24 5/8, and 1/8 is not an unusual factory compensation.

since any collectible value is gone due to the refinish, if necessary just cut a slightly wider saddle slot to get good intonation if necessary.
Author:  Don A [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:36 am ]
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Brock, I see 8 holes at the bridge location. I'm betting this is one of the infamous bolt on bridges.
Author:  jamesneunder [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:39 am ]
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Hmmm, a wide saddle? That might work if he was happy going that way.

Brock, the brother in law was doing a refinish, but never gave the guitar back, and didn't get done. You are right it is finished under the bridge area, so he was doing it right. Well, except for sanding off all the sunburst.

Anthony, you are right it is light and very resonant. My buddy couldn't stand me buffing it, so he took over, so I started complaining about all the buffer noise coming out the sound hole. It should be fantastic.

I'll check out those links, James
Author:  jamesneunder [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:59 am ]
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Don, it is a bolt on.

Brock, the brother in law, a boat builder, did get it lacquered, but never buffed out, back together and back to him. You know, just one of those "getaroundtuit" projects. Well... he never did.... but boxed it up and sent it home, several states away.

Anthony those were perfect lengths and well-answer the question of the squirrely compensation. Turns out it is truly a 24 9/16 plus compensation length. That really helped guys, OLFRESCUE911!
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:05 am ]
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I would not really worry about whether or not it is a long 24.75 or a short 25.00 or whatever. I would measure the distance from the nut edge to the 12th fret center. Double that and extend a rule to that scale point. If it falls on the "old" bridge with sufficient depth that a new slot won't cause the bridge to fail then just re-bolt on the bridge, fill the slot, and find your intonation marks ( by whatever method you use...I use the S.M. intonator), re-slot and get to playing that beauty! I love old guitars...no matter what scale!

Merry Christmas!
Author:  CarltonM [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:09 am ]
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Good golly! Don't re-bolt the bridge--glue it!!! Make it into a playable, GOOD SOUNDING guitar! Since this is a Gibson I have to ask if the bridge is wood or plastic? If it's plastic, make a wood one.
Author:  jamesneunder [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:12 am ]
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Carlton, it's Brazilian Rosewood, quite pretty too.

Dave, thanks for the info, we are headed down to take a look again.

McKenzie sent Wfret.exe and we are armed for bear with the printouts.
Author:  jamesneunder [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:05 am ]
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I'm thinking my friend needs to fill the slot and re-rout the new saddle location. What do you think?

Anyone have a tiny slice of Brazilian they'd be willing to part with?   1/8 by 3/16 tall by 3.05" would do it. James





jamesneunder39073.7993518518
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:00 pm ]
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what distance is the saddlematic set to?

if it is set to the nut-12th distance, the distance from the saddlematic pins to the saddle looks about right for compensation.
Author:  jamesneunder [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:12 pm ]
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Hi Michael, The Saddlematic is set on the Nut to center of 12th Fret distance. The pins already have the compensation set for a Martin 25.4 scale. StewMac says that the difference is very slight from short scale to long scale guitars. In other words, don't bother.

So using the SJ Gibson 1958 fretboard, the pics show the excess length of the scale. It's about 1/8" too long for the scale, which turns out to be 24 9/16 inches plus a little for compensation. WE are just too long for the existing board. And, we want to get it right for this sweet old guitar.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:11 am ]
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Just throwing another idea out here- have you checked the fingerboard at other fret positions to check the scale length? Is there any chance that the nut (or the 12th fret, or the whole fingerboard for that matter) is in the wrong spot?
I also assume you have a high-accuracy scale/ruler, or have double-checked with several scales.

The bolts may be a handyman add-on, but the bridge pin holes pretty well define the original (factory) bridge position, I'd think. Very curious.

John
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:27 pm ]
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it is not unusual to find gibsons with scales that are not to spec. they went through so many ownership/management changes that things got all over the place. and plywood bridge plates and bolts were some of the factory management cost saving steps. but they didn't have warranty claims from bridges coming off, did they.

and it is also not uncommon for bridges to be placed incorrectly in factories. it happens to the best of them. clients bring in their axe wondering why it won't play in tune and you measure it and the problem is obvious.

the bridge the last bit of woodwork to go into position and is, or should be, glued on based on the fret board and scale. if it is glued on correctly it will be in the correct position relative to the fretboard.

in this case if the saddlematic points are indicating the correct saddle position you have a problem. moving the saddle to the indicated position would leave almost no wood between the end of the saddle and the edge of the bridge. this would create a situation for a bridge fracture. plus your break angles would not be close to good.

have you had a good look inside to see if the bridge plate would support a shift forward for the bridge. this would probably require going to a belly down bridge to cover the old pin holes which probably should be plugged as well.

if the bridge plate is ply, typical of the period, it is most probably in bad shape as well. they tended to chip out badly. you may have to look at replacing it also.

needless to say all this would have been simpler if the checking and necessary work had been done prior to refinishing.crazymanmichael39075.3699074074
Author:  tippie53 [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:00 am ]
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    I wouldn't change the saddle unless you know for sure the intonation is off. ALso what is the reason for the intonation problem? Is the action high ETC. also Martin uses a 3 degree of compensation and gibson uses a 4 degree.
     Look into this a bit further before moving the saddle. Compensation length to the 1st string on the saddle should fall .100 to .125 more than the 12th fret to the nut doubled.
If you set this up short you will be sharp. You want to be about 1 to 2 cents flat on the set up because the strings will go sharp as they work harden. Also the human ear picks up a sharp easier than a flat.
john hall
Author:  tippie53 [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:12 am ]
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this is a SJN from what I can tell. The inlay on the fretboard or wrong for the J45. The SJN Country western jumbo matches the picture. it was available in a nautral finish starting in 56 so that falls into this model.
As for scale length Gibson jumped them all over the place but are often 24.75 I would set this back up to the original postion and I think you should be fine. Use pearl dots white glued over the screws.
   any questions feel free to call me. The guitar isn't highly valuable but worth in the 700 range per blue book.
god luck
john hall
blues creek guitars
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:43 am ]
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Looks to me like you have this scale instrument, and she is a beauty!!

WA's 1963 Gibson B-25 acoustic, 24-5/8", 24.625", 625mm
Author:  tippie53 [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:33 am ]
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Looking in the gibson blue book the inlay isn't correct for the B - 25 , that had pearl dots on the fretboard.
   The inlay on the fretboard point to the SJ series.
   It may also be the southener jumbo series can you get a picture of the binding detail?
    The southerner has tortice and teh SJ has black pickguard.
   
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:26 am ]
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this is definitely not a b25 which was a roughly 000 sized guitar, though the body was shaped more toward a classical shape.

the sj(southern jumbo)was/is a j45 variant with finish and trim variations such as inlays, natural/sb finish, pickguard material, binding, etc. and they varied over the years, but basically a short scale, slope shoulder dred.

this is a j45 variant and they often had an ink stamp inside on the back graft which said j45, sj, etc.

make your decision on what to do based on accurate measurement of the nut-12 distance, and go from there. if in doubt and you wish to confirm that the present bridge location is not correct, get some of the hollow bridge pin bolts that s-m sells and test it using the existing bridge/saddle position, then if it is off try using some dowel, small tubing, etc. for individual string movable saddles and see where you have to move it to to get it right.



Author:  jamesneunder [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:13 am ]
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My friend is indeed holding his SJ Southern Jumbo his dad bought him used. It was previously used in a gospel group and purchased second-hand for him.

The kind brother in law, took it to refinish it for him. That is why it is missing the sunburst. After the lacquer job, it never got buffed out. It actually was gone for 28 years, but was returned just a few months ago when after a funeral in a distant state, he himself brought it up. Then came the box with the guitar much as you see it.

We convinced ourselves that it was buffer-ready, and it was. The finish is great. A new tortis pickguard will cover many top uglies. That's when we decided to check the bridge... and found the discrepancies of excess compensation. Pretty close to an 1/8 inch in excess of normal compensation.

I was hoping to find him a tiny piece of close grain brazilian, as it's not in my arsenal, ebony and indian. I think bolting on the bridge and burning a set of strings is a great idea and I'll call him and mention your great suggestion Michael. It's been wonderful to get some feedback on this great old guitar.

I'm glad it came home to him, for his golden years.
Author:  Don A [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:07 pm ]
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James, check out this information on Frank Ford's site. While he is working on a Hummingbird, the same applies to your Southern Jumbo. link
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:53 pm ]
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don't bolt it on with the bolt holes in the bridge. what i was referring to are special purpose hollow bolts s-m sells for testing purposes. you use one in each pin hole and the string is passed through from the inside. using only the bolt holes in the bridge could cause damage.
Author:  jamesneunder [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:01 pm ]
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Thanks Don, Frank makes it look easy. Great Article.

I have no doubt we will get this baby singing for it's owner one way or another. Lot's to consider to get it right.

James
Author:  tippie53 [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:54 pm ]
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   I think I can help you with the BRW Call me 570-682-8046
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